Episode 002 - Labels and Language (Part 1)
Friend interviews Megan about the impact of labels and language on her work and self-identity, and how words can hinder or help our understanding of people working in creative fields. We remind our audience that the whole point of this podcast is to enter the “discomfort zone.” There’s also a great debate about art vs fine art, and artist vs. creative.
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Show Notes
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The Costume Institute’s In America: A Lexicon of Fashion exhibit at the Anna Wintour Costume Center runs until September 5, 2022.
“Eloquency” - not a word!
The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron
Dictionary Definition of “Art”: “the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.”
The Art$’ Money-Mind Grid is on our Free Resources page
Homework: Notice how often you compliment someone this week.
We would love to hear from you! Email us your questions and ideas at podcast at artbymegan dot com
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Arts 002 - Labels and Language Part 1
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Megan: All right. We're on Episode Two, Labels and Language, Part One.
Friend: Welcome to The Arts, a brand new podcast about art and money. I've spent my career managing at some of the world's largest financial institutions. So I can't tell you my name, but trust me, talking about money is my jam.
Megan: And I'm Megan, I'm an artist and a teacher. And now co-host of this amazing podcast.
We're having this conversation because we came to a realization. We have no idea how the other person spends her work day.
Friend: Or her money. So let's chat about it.
Megan: Hey friend,
Friend: Hey Megan.
Megan: I've been so looking forward to this, like since the last time we recorded.
Friend: Yeah, me too. And we did a good job, you know, we didn't scare each other off.
Megan: I mean, I have some time for that. So just, you know, pace yourself. We hinted at this a little bit at the end of our last episode, but would you remind our listeners what's happening today?
Friend: For sure. So on today's show, we're going to explore why it's worth remembering how important words are. And that as one of my favorite colleagues likes to say, "words mean things."
I'm going to ask Megan about art jargon and some of these labels and the related language and how it can have the power to either limit us or unleash us.
Megan: Episode Two!, we're killing it to can't wait. And then onto the next episode, I'm going to ask you some of the same questions about your field.
Friend: That sounds lovely. And how balanced, as one one would expect now that we're basically podcast pros.
Megan: I mean, we do have topics, structure, music, everything it's all happening. But first we'll start today's podcast episode with The Scene, which is our version of what is nerdy cool about the art and finance world. And if we have time at the end, we'll check back in on the homework that we gave ourselves last week.
My three-year-old ate my homework for real.
Friend: Not buying it. He has better parents than that. Okay. Let's get started.
The Scene.
I would normally be more polite and defer to you to go first, but I've been waiting for weeks now to tell you about this exhibit that I went to see. And I think I might forget about it or lose some of my awe for it. Is that a thing, forgetting?
Megan: Yes, you have to tell it while it's still fresh. So please share.
Friend: Okay. All right. And it, it relates closely to what we want to talk about today. So remember when you last came to visit in New York and we tried to get into the costume exhibit at The Met?
Megan: I miss New York so much. Do you want me to cry on this podcast?
Friend: Well, New York misses you. So the Costume Institute is part of a set exhibit at the Met in New York.
And I didn't know this, but it's popular, very popular, frequently queues, people waiting to get in. So you can't just like on a whim. Normal Saturday, just rock up there and be like, I'll just walk through. You have to get in line and get there early. And so I took a day off and I went first thing as the museum opened.
And so it's the Anna Wintour Costume Center. The exhibit that's running right now is called, "In America, a Lexicon of Fashion." And it's running for the next few months. Which is good. Cause we're, pre-recording this. But it starts with this look at when we're describing European fashion, why do we give it this beautiful language of design and art.
And then when we're talking about American fashion, why do we. You know, not really have such eloquence, eloquency, eloquent? And why are we not so eloquent? Which is..
Megan: Hold on, we'll put it in the show notes.
Friend: Oh no. This part will be stripped out. And when it comes to talking about American fashion, why are we not so eloquent?
Or why are we more functional in the way that we describe it? And then the exhibit has one piece from the last 30 or 40 years from all of the major American designers and they each have their own sort of light booth if you will, or their, their own display. And I mean, I could have stayed all day.
I just, I loved it. I loved getting up close to these pieces and being able to identify without reading the label. Who's like, oh, that's Tommy Hilfiger and that's Michael Kors. And that's..
Megan: There is so much design. I mean, I don't know much about fashion design, but I can imagine there's like a lot to learn.
Friend: It was a lot to learn. And then in one section the task of the designer was to choose one word to describe their style or, or the piece that they had designed and to really work work like it wasn't functional expression. It was creative expression and it was beautiful too. I mean, maybe that's the nerd in me coming up, but I love words.
And and I love fashion. And so anyways, well worth a visit. It really stunned me. I think I took a picture of every single piece in there, and sometimes when I'm bored, I flip through it and like, look at the ruffles and the sequins and make myself happy.
Megan: That's actually, I really interesting to me because that's such a good sign of a good show.
Right? There's so many elements to it that have to be. Pre determined, right. For it to be something that draws you in that much. And yeah, maybe it was like, you're a huge fashion fan. And you also were very curious just generally, but for you to be. That interested in something that maybe you didn't even know, you're like, that's pretty cool.
Friend: Yeah. I knew I was into fashion. I I've always loved clothes since I was little, but I have never really seen it done this well in an exhibit. And so anyways, it's running for the next few months. We'll put the information in the show notes and me, you know, well, well worth the time. I would mark an hour for it, at least if you're at all interested in clothes. Or words.
Megan: Sounds like I'm booking a weekend to NY.
Friend: Yes. Yeah. We'll go. Let's, you know, next time now we know we'll just need to show up earlier. The museum usually opens around 10 and so I was there at 10 and I just walked in. Yeah.
Megan: It sounds really interesting. And I like how you're talking about what basically we're talking about today, which is that like the prestige given to one thing versus the maybe commonplace definition of another thing that's really.
Friend: Yeah, exactly. So thank you. Thanks for letting me go first.
Megan: Of course. Okay. So I can't top your answer this week because I don't live in New York anymore, but I'm going to share that what I'm reading. It's something that I used to think was very woo. Woo. You know, like maybe a little too out there for me, but I'm rereading something from art school.
Well, I went to a state school, but from art, from my art education, it's called The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. And it's so good. Now it's age appropriate for me. And it's very interesting for me to reflect on how I reacted to it as a 20 year old versus many years later. So, it's for me summarizing a lot of the ways to reignite my creativity, which I do not need any inspiration on that.
I have the opposite problem because I just need more time, but it also gave me a reminder of two creative habit. For people in the book, they say, you know, she says, try these two things out. One is called Morning Pages where you write three pages of free flowing thoughts every day, which I don't journal.
I'm a word person, but not in a way where I need to write. So this is like a completely new habit for me. And I'm loving it. And then the second, which I needed a reminder, but I do already, which is called Artist Dates where you take yourself on like a creative adventure every week. I mean, This is huge.
So this is officially my new year's resolution.
Friend: Oh, I love that. Oh, well, that's going to dovetail really nicely with The Scene then you'll have to do it for two reasons because Julia Cameron said, and because you have things to talk about here. Oh, my gosh I had forgotten about morning pages, you know?
I think I need to go back and look at like, what else has she published? Because for me, it was also around the same time I was in university and trying to get the writing flowing. And from then, until now it's changed the way I'm able to write. I feel like I hold myself back less.
I'll just sit down and do it. And she has this great way of encouraging you to just remove that barrier. Like just get over it. Yeah. And see what comes out.
Megan: I'm like already amazed at what I've written. It's very shocking.
Friend: Oh man. That's a whole thing right there. Julia Cameron The Artists Way you can just drop that on us like that.
Megan: Episode seven.
Friend: It might totally distract me from the The Main Exhibit today.
Megan: No, no.
Friend: All right.
The Main Exhibit.
So words, let's have a few words about words.
Megan: Word.
Friend: How long had you planned that one?
Megan: All my life.
Friend: Well-played okay. I thought we could start with the basics. Like, what are you talking about when you say this? Are we on the same page, and then work our way up to maybe defining a language that we could use? More specifically here on the podcast.
Megan: Word. I'm ready.
Friend: First question. What is "Art"? Or what's your definition of art?
Megan: All right. She's just like hitting me. Like there's no time to waste. Okay. Art to me is, "that which is created by someone who is inspired or exploring an idea." I really thought hard about this definition. I'm reading it because I had to write one down: inspired or exploring an idea.
All right. I don't think for me personally, that there's a differentiation between whether or not it's a hobby profession or a side hustle or any amalgamation of those, but what's more important is that the creator is creating something for themselves.
So it's their idea that they have to get out. It's like an out-of-body experience almost where you have to create, or you feel like there's something missing. It's like a writer, right? Like a really good writer is writing kind of for themselves. They're maybe not writing with the intention to dot.dot.dot.
And then there's a dictionary definition, which I also kind of explored, which is, "the expression or application of human, creative skill and imagination. Typically in a visual form, such as painting or sculpture. Producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power." Now that's a lot right there.
Friend: I like that.
Megan: Yeah. I mean, they're kind of, I didn't cheat. Like I didn't look that up and then think of mine, which I was proud of. Like, wow, I know what I'm talking about. Okay. Before we get too deep into this though, I have a disclaimer.
I think personally that there are many types of art that have been considered art, A R T capital A because of the traditional gatekeepers who determine what is art. And when I say traditional gatekeepers, I mean, mostly European white men. Who say this equals art. And so now that that is changing.
And by that, I mean, like museums are changing. Art curators are changing. The art world is changing. Art has by definition changed, which is awesome. So it's very exciting.
Friend: That's exciting. We're going to talk about that in the next episode, but that's a similar story to what's happening or what has happened in finance.
The gatekeepers are moving. Or being moved. Let me just make sure I'm following you here. And this is a little off script, but I just have one of follow-up to that is, is fine. Art. I know this is probably really basic, but is fine. art a subset of art? And is there unfine art or not fine art?
Megan: I guess, I guess it depends who you ask. Right?
Friend: Okay. So when we're going to talk about art on this podcast. Are we talking about art or fine art?
Megan: I personally would like to be categorized as a fine artist. I do it professionally and I've studied it my whole life, but I don't know if I respond for everyone. So maybe when we will explore this more, when we ask our guests more.
Friend: Yeah, no, that, that makes sense. I'm gonna roll into another followup question from there then, because honestly, I don't know if I know the difference or know what's in and out. And so I have a few things here I wanted to know if you would consider the following as art.
So I'm just going to ask you and be like, is this art yes or no? Okay. All right.
Singing?
Megan: Yes.
Friend: Singing karaoke?
Megan: No.
Friend: Why not?
Megan: Because I can't, I personal experience only that's my gut reaction.
Friend: It just doesn't sound like it. Or it's it's plagiarism.
Megan: Or it's just not my art form for sure.
Friend: Okay. Sewing?
Megan: I'm going to say it's not, but there's a section of art called craft that sewing falls under. So it's a complex answer.
Friend: Oh, we're nesting sewing within craft within art.
Megan: Yeah.
Friend: Okay.
Megan: And I think art that was called craft was named craft by men because it was art by women. I'm not kidding. Like there's a whole subset of art that was not yet considered art until recently, but it has been art for thousands and millions of years.
Friend: Right. And certainly sewing as we were talking earlier, if you are at House of Givenchy like you're sewing, you are an artist, you are a sewing artists.
Megan: So this is a gatekeeper issue.
Friend: Good to know. All right. Next one, inventing a new product?
Megan: I personally think inventors are artists because of the creativity required to think of something new, completely new that does not yet exist.
Friend: What if I dress up in my favorite costume and I go to Comicon?
Megan: I'm gonna go with the pleading, the fifth aka gatekeeper issue. I don't know if it warrants.. I don't know if it garners the same respect..
I mean, personally me putting on a Pokemon outfit. It doesn't seem like art, but it's maybe like a dress street art. Again, I'm not the gatekeeper, you know?
Friend: No, I know. I'm just, I guess I'm just trying to funny, trying to be funny. I mean, for some people that's their creative expression. Does that make it art?
Megan: Yeah.
Friend: Okay. This is, I already know the answer to this one because it's in the same bucket as sewing, I guess -knitting?
Megan: Yeah. It's an art form for sure. Nested under craft. Okay. So, which was problematic and we can explore later.
Friend: Okay. How about in my evenings to give my brain a break, I color in an adult coloring book?
Megan: I think that files under meditation.
Friend: Okay.
Not art.
Interesting.
Megan: You're not expressing a thing you must get out. You're just doing a mindless task. That feels nice.
Friend: Filling in the blanks. Okay, so that's coloring books. What if I was like, I need to draw this face. I saw on the subway and I get out my pencils and my notebook?
Megan: That's I think more on the art column. We need to make a graphic for this. Now that I'm thinking about this, this is going to be interesting. There's a Venn diagram forming.
Friend: There's totally a Venn diagram for this. All right. What about makeup -doing your own makeup?
Megan: Oh, definitely an art form.
Friend: Yes - my own?
Megan: I think so.
Maybe not on your, well, what do you think it's an art form because it's, self-expression.
Friend: It's painting on your face.
Megan: Yeah. Especially if you can do it. Well, I think it's art.
Friend: Cool.
Megan: I know, shocking.
Friend: I know. I thought you would say no on that one. Writing?
Megan: Art because it's like stuck in your brain. You have to get it out. I know you've got one.
Friend: I've got one. I can put one thing on my list here. I don't do all of these things. Certainly not the Comicon. Okay. We're going to get letters ..
Megan: From all the... Yes.
Friend: How about cooking?
Megan: To some people? Yes. It's an art form. People who do it well. Or must do it as a form of self expression.
I'm just going to keep defaulting to that. Me when I cook, not an art form, period, it's pure. It's just putting food on people's.
Friend: All right. What about baking?
Megan: Same.
Friend: Okay. All right. And then last one, making your own analog dance videos?
Megan: This is a personal question, not from one of our viewers -
Friend: Asking for a Friend.
Megan: Our co-host here. If it brings you joy and it's a form of self-expression. We can file it under art.
Friend: Alright, two, I get two in the column. Okay. That was good. I think that helped to put some color around your definition. Do you see what I did there? I made an art joke.
Megan: I love an art joke.
Friend: Yeah. All right. Next level question. What is a creative?
Megan: Okay. A creative. Is anyone involved in a creative field let's say, but I think of it more as a really loose, recently popular term for describing someone who either brainstorms well or invents things for a living or works in tech or is an artist. I am not. Sure how I feel about how the word is being used.
Friend: Right. That's what I was wondering. Because I'd like to remove it from my lexicon, if it's like, is it coming across as derogatory or is it more aspirational? Is it like, " this is Megan. She's a creative. There's probably something better I could call you.
Megan: I prefer artist and I don't know if my answer would have been the same five or 10 years ago, but I've learned a lot recently. And I think that's my answer. I prefer being called an artist. A creative to me. It doesn't, it doesn't have the same panache. Right? It's like it doesn't garner the same amount of respect. It also can be used much more often from what I've experienced in a derogatory way. I also think it's heavily gendered. So -
Friend: Creative is heavily gendered? Towards women, more used for women?
Megan: Yes. I think a man who paints for a living is an artist. A mother like myself, who paints for a living is a creative it's messed up.
Friend: That's messed up.
Megan: Like literally, I'm a mom who paints. Some people have called me a mommy blogger and I'm like, no, what? Like no offense to mommy bloggers, but that's not appropriate. A man who has a website who paints, who's a father. That's not, anyways. That's a whole another conversation. A man who works for apple is a tech guy, a woman who owns her own tech startup is often called a creative from what I've read and seen.
Friend: Oh, wow. Okay. So there is a difference in the differences that one is... more specific to their trade?
Megan: I mean, I do think it's gendered. I just think what I've seen the word creative become is I think it's one of those terms. That's trying to include everyone, but in doing so is a problematic.
Friend: Right. Okay. So artists are like a special...
Megan: I mean, yeah, so I think -
Friend: Full-stop: artists are special.
Megan: Episode is over, I think the Venn diagram for this would show a lot of overlap, for example. Artists are a small segment within a community of creatives or creative community, however you want to call it. But I also think there's so many other people that are quote unquote creative, right?
So like elementary school teachers are probably the most creative people on earth. They're creatives. Scientists are inherently like they have to be creative to solve a problem and inventor, same thing, but artists traditionally, you know, they're creative, but they're making something with their hands. To express inner thoughts or feelings or to critique some sort of element in society.
So I think there's probably just better words to define different fields.
Friend: Yeah. There's something here about this like that need to express that worries me. Because I haven't been trained or encouraged in my field to express things that way. To express them visually, let's say or audibly, you express with numbers.
Like we use numbers to tell a story, you know, we use charts and tables. You can, you know, my mind works in tables and it worries me that I could, it would be a long journey or I could never be an artist because I don't know how to express that way. Does that make sense?
Megan: That completely makes sense. But from the other perspective, what I can tell you is that my.
Almost my entire life. I tried to avoid becoming an artist for mostly financial reasons. There are so many good segues, but I, I tried to avoid this at all costs and at the recommendation of many smart, intelligent people that I respect, but I couldn't. So an artist to me is like this inner calling.
Friend: Oh, interesting. So does that mean that you can't make yourself be an artist? Like if I want to be a painter, but I actually don't have, and I felt this with the writing, by the way, at first I wanted to be a writer, but I actually had nothing interesting to say, is it the same, do you think, with painting? Like if I wanted to paint. But have nothing that is burning to come out of me then am I a hobbyist? Am I a bad painter? Or could I be an artist?
Megan: I mean, this is like, there's this shirt out there that I want to buy so badly that says, "men have made a lot of bad art," you know, it's like, but they, but it's like, whatever you want to call yourself, you can be.
So you're your own gatekeepers step one. And then you have to just convince other people to like you. There's a lot of marketing involved here that has nothing to do with talent. And then there's like inner burning need to do things which oftentimes does not correlate to international fame and success.
Right. So it's on like two different columns.
Friend: Do you know who I think would be good to talk to about this? I know is Amanda because her current, like she's currently working. Exactly. Each of her pieces is like, here's what the emotion was or what the, you know, the feeling was something that we can go there.
There. Yeah. All right. Cool. So note to self and to our listeners, refer to Megan from here on, in as an artist. And I will say that I think even in the five years, I've known you. I have seen you inhabit that a lot more. Like this probably wouldn't be a conversation we would have had five or 10 years ago.
Whereas now, like I can see you owning it. Like I'm an artist. And by the way, I love that.
Megan: It's a very beautiful process that I could not have reached without much anguish. So like a quick side note. I am very thankful that I did not become a professional artist off the get go. Like at a 22 year old, Megan would not have thrived or had thick enough skin to do that.
Now that I'm a very much older and wiser version of myself it's like appropriate.
Friend: Right. And you have stories to tell through your art and you have -
Megan: And I've had to fight very hard for it, you know?
Friend: Awesome. That's so interesting. Oh, I could stay there all day, but I think I need to keep asking you a few more questions here.
Megan: Yes.
Friend: Okay. Next level question. What are some of the generalizations or labels that you hear in your space?
Megan: We have to put like trigger warning on this episode. I'm so annoyed by the word "artist" being used as a, as a stereotype generalization or just a big diss.
You know, for example, I have a master's degree in Spanish literature, but when I introduce myself to people as an artist, the reaction is. Not what I would want. Right. It's like, Oh, there's an automatic assumption that I might not be a smart, organized or intellectual person.
Friend: Really?
Megan: I personally have had to work through that.
Friend: But are these people that don't know how well educated you are, do you think? Okay, so they're just hearing this one thing like today, this is what I'm doing and therefore I have no education or I'm not organized.
Megan: There's just this strange, there's a stereotype. You know, it goes with a lot of women in many businesses, but I would say as artist and woman. It's a tricky, it's a tricky introduction to make a lot of times though, when I work with non-artists like as clients, or curators or whatever, I'm complimented by them for my people skills or my ability to just generally function as an adult, which I find very funny because
Friend: - the bar is so low?
Megan: Right? So I'm always pleasantly surprising people, which is kind of funny. So I've learned to sort of navigate those waters and say like, I'm going to play this system to my advantage. Same with like being a blonde woman, you know, like I'm like, oh, you think I'm dumb? So I'm just using the fact that I'm like a real, you know, actual human. So I really started with the negative there. I just like quickly because of the word stereotype, I got like all fired up, but I just want you to know that like, like 10 years of literally like rage but that's like 10% of people, 90% of people that I've interacted with are awesome and really intrigued by creative people.
And when I say creative people, I don't mean that as a derogatory term. Right. So the spectrum is really full of like a lovely variety of people who are really genuinely interested in myself as an artist or artists in general.
Friend: That is a very interesting thing to deal with where expectations are low and you can easily clear them. I guess. It's nice on the one hand to be like, people are surprised by you, but on the other hand, don't you want to have more expected of you at this point?
Megan: Personally, what I do is I just. Raise the bar for myself, I'm really good at competing with myself. I'd rather actually compete with myself.
Friend: Yeah. Good. So then the generalizations, it seems to be a little neutral, like you're aware of them, you don't necessarily agree. Would that be fair?
Megan: I literally love proving people wrong or just like, just like pleasantly surprising people, even, you know, so I use the generalizations to my advantage. Without letting them hurt my feelings, whereas formerly they did. So I just like to surprise people. I show them that artists are really good at everything. And like most adults, we can function and run businesses.
Friend: I like doing that too surprising people like come in stealth mode and then be like, oh, by the way, I'm wicked smart.
Megan: It's kind of like how you and I both know Spanish, but like kind of our undercover about it.
You know, it's a nice skill. It's nice to be like, wait, actually watch your back. Cause I know a lot of things
Friend: (entiendo)
Megan: and now we're switching over to our content for the Spanish podcast.
Friend: Okay, cool. Penultimate question.
Megan: Yes.
Friend: What are some of the most uplifting? And some of the most degrading words that have been spoken to you or over you in relation to your art or your as an artist?
Megan: Okay, I'm going to start with degrading and then end on a positive note because that's nice. You know, there's a lot of there's some pent up rage. I mean the degrading comments are mostly like, that artists are disorganized, that I personally am disorganized that my head's in the clouds, that artists are messy people.
And then my favorite story when I was pregnant with my second child, a man who was an artist. And I say "Artist" with the capital A lot, which is like my own terminology for people who are like self-important to me at an opening for my art, my show, and told me that by having another child, I was ruining my career as an artist.
I was pregnant. Like it was too late, you know,
Friend: what do you want me to do about this?
Megan: But I was like, bro, like you're old. You're a man.
Friend: And what do you know about this?
You have nothing to do with this?
Megan: And I'm at my own art show.
Friend: And how do you like the art, sir?
Megan: Like buy it or bu-bye, get out? Yeah, I just was like, I literally just was like mouth ajar, like, okay.
Thank you. That sort of there's that.
Friend: Okay. Yeah. What did you do by the way? What did you say to him?
Megan: I think I just like went - uhhh I just couldn't, there were no words. That's a whole topic. We could do a whole episode on like horrible comebacks. I don't have the ability in the moment. Swing back with a punch.
Friend: Oh, I'm good at that. You should give me like a list of these. I have one for you for head in the clouds. I already came up with it just now and be like, well, I need to spend some time there since I'm painting them all the time.
Megan: Oh my God.
Friend: Right.
Megan: All I do is like drive away from things and I just play it out full anxiety mode in my head. And I'm like, you should have said that..
Friend: But you should be like, oh, did you, is that a joke? Like you realize you enjoy the clouds. Like you actually paint clouds. And you were the one that taught me about the structure of clouds.
Like you give me scientific reasons for why we paint clouds this way, because this is how they're formed. Like, hello, she's been studying it. She's not just up there with her brain off.
Megan: Episode 10. Clouds. I'm not kidding. I love clouds so much. And I geeked out when I learned about them in science class as a child.
Okay. Onto clouds, we're going to go to a uplifting.
Friend: Uplifting. Let's do it. There have to have been some good things.
Megan: So everything is good. Like everything's so good. Once you start focusing on the positive too. I just sort of don't think about the negative as much anymore. And I've been putting myself out there a lot more recently and people are really connecting with my art, especially my abstract art, which to me has been the ultimate confidence booster because I'm as an artist trying to explain something to people without words.
Or as an abstract artist without imagery, which sounds impossible. Right. And the fact that people can connect with my work and find it soothing or inspirational or meditative or relaxing, like that is my own personal mic drop. Right. Because it's a really beautiful experience to just talk to someone about what they think when they're open and they're just asking nice questions and want to know about the art. It's just really lovely.
Friend: That's really nice positive reinforcement for other people to be able to articulate what they see or what it makes them feel. Not just for you.
Megan: I know that's another generalization that's out there though. It's like the viewer doesn't have to understand the art. And I think sometimes we don't give the viewer enough credit for like, just try.
Friend: Yeah.
Megan: Like it makes you feel stupid to be like, is this about whatever? And then all of a sudden the artists is like offended and you're like, oh, I'm really sorry.
Friend: Well, I think that is a certain gatekeeping actions of artists being like, you, you don't get it. And really like, come on art is for all. Like don't, let's not kid ourselves. Yeah. Do you have. Any reaction to like, do you ever go in your head? Like, no, that's not what it's about or do you just let it flow?
And like, whatever somebody says and observes about it is fine with you. Cause at least they're identifying with it?
Megan: With my abstracts. I really like people just like winging it and telling me what they like about it. Most often they're complimenting it in some way, shape or form also. I feel like once I've started having shows, I attract nice people because you create a vibe.
Right. But it just takes time. This has taken like 10 years now, right. Of like vibe formation. So. Maybe the good people are finding me. And then the wacky ones, you just kind of know they're a little wacky and you let them talk and
Friend: yeah. Just keep painting.
Megan: Yeah.
Friend: All right. Last question for you for today. And this is a little bit related to what we were just talking about: what do you think happens when non-artists, like me are, trying to engage with you or understand a work and don't know what to say or they maybe don't understand the art. How do you both deal with that discomfort and the unfamiliar?
Like are you trying to give them words or. Let it be or is it not uncomfortable?
Megan: Yeah. I think first of all, there's people that just don't even go look at art. Right. So I think that it's important to remember that there is a whole segment of the population who's just terrified. For whatever reason to look dumb. And then there's the people who are willing to go see art that they don't know anything about.
Right. So right off the bat, like just be, be positive about the fact that you're willing to feel out of place or like you don't understand something. Right. And so I personally think it's amazing to go see art. You don't know anything about, it's like it's the most pure, innocent way to experience something as adults where we're sort of a presuming that we have all the answers.
Recently I had a show and a woman just sat on a bench and stare at one of my paintings for a while, and then left whoa really powerful experience for me. And for me not to talk like that was hard, you know.
Friend: It's not like you're going to pull up a chair beside her and be like, so what do you think?
Like she's in her zone and let her be.
Megan: Yeah. Yeah. So it was like an interesting way to sort of let me like observe it, but not need to be part of her her moment, but anyways, so yes. Go see art that you don't know anything about. I think that's huge after you see the work, read everything you can about the artist and their work, and then piece together, your own opinion, your own reaction.
I think the problem with us as adults, it's our human nature to kind of.. I need an immediate reaction, right? With like technology and the world right now, that's the expectation is like something has happened. I react immediately. I know, I know everything about it. I have opinions about it. I know where to stand ethically on this issue.
You know, it's like so immediate, but I think art is a gift and that it allows us to kind of form a slow opinion. It's asking us to slowly put together what we think about something. So, you know, it's okay to slow down.
Friend: And not know.
Megan: Yeah.
Friend: Just like sit with it.
Megan: It's like this actual sign of a true intellect to someone who can just wait.
Friend: Who can be uncomfortable, not knowing and not reacting. It's been an interesting social experiment for me to have this art that, you know, this piece that you did for me, and it's massive, and it was kind of an ordeal to get it home and framed. And so it involved a few people cause I didn't have a vehicle that could, you know, anyways, It was like, it took a village.
So then, so then people have been like, well, let me see this thing. Right. So they're kind of like aware of what we're doing here. So it's been interesting to watch them come into the room and take a look at it. And I think a lot of my people don't know what to say to me. You know, and similarly with the zoom, you know, I spend most of my life in zoom meetings and a few people who work very closely with me have asked one or two people have been like, "Ooh, you know, new art in the backdrop" and so on. But, but I think there's there's a real hesitancy there and that's just a very small anecdote, but I just wondered from your perspective, if you get that often when you're showing your art.
Megan: I just think it's like, there's a lack of vocabulary about it, right? Like there's just a lack of experience in talking. I mean, not to be like the dorkiest, but that's the segue into finance too. That's why these two are so intimately involved because we don't have the right tools. I want to admit what we do and don't know.
Friend: And so we're hoping we can just get the space, right. Just be honest about what you don't know, what you're trying to learn.
Megan: Yes. So we're going to design some graphics for us visual learners.
Friend: Yeah. So we created a couple of graphics that we think are pretty simple and invite, our guests and our listeners to develop a common language around art and money so that we're more comfortable and more confident talking about it.
One is a simple scale to reference when we're thinking about the comfort level in talking about our own finances. We're going to talk about the scale in the next episode. But the other one which I wanted to talk about today is a grid. As I said, I kind of think in tables not in paint colors, but it's a, it's a grid with an X and Y axis.
So, you know, horizontal and vertical line that intersect in the middle and we've got four quadrants. And we call this one, the money, mind grid. So your money mind, where are you on, you know, the, the extremes of this thing. So we have this, it gives us sort of a money profile of savers and splurgers.
And then on the horizontal extremes, we have creative minds or the. Profile of creative people. And then on the other side, we have this sort of analytical logical. And so we thought it'd be interesting to see over time. How many of our guests from all of these. Sectors and industries map themselves out on the grid.
And if any of us feel the need to try to move ourselves into a new place in the grid. So I know that's a little, probably hard to visualize, but we'll share those in the show notes as well. And you can find them on the website.
Megan: I think you explained it very well. I like this graph a lot and I have a fear of graphs. So it really helped me though, because I would need to visually think through how I understand things. So this helped me sort of categorize how I think about money. It was really interesting for me. Where are you on the grid?
Friend: I placed myself in the upper left quadrant and that is towards the extreme of being a saver and towards the extreme of being an analytical mind.
Megan: I don't know why I'm so surprised.
Friend: You could have placed me.
Megan: And where shall the listeners place me!? And I'm a creative splurger.
Okay. So I put myself there, but then I'm going to take you through my mind. I'm a financial planners, worst nightmare. Right. But then I realized I don't really splurge.
I splurge in a micro. Like teeny splurge.
Friend: Define "Micro:. Is micro, like $2 or like 20?
Megan: Like it's a little, it's like budget-friendly splurging. I'm not an actual, splurger like, okay. So like I'll use my husband's hotel points to treat myself to a weekend in New York. Right.
Friend: Okay. Oh, so you're a maximizer.
Megan: I'm a maximizer of my own situation, which I don't know if that means I'm a splurger, but I am really good at turning lemons into lemonade. I'll take myself out for a cup of coffee and buy myself a new book, but it's like a paperback.
I don't buy a hard hardback, but honestly, I think I'm not a splurger. I think I'm just like a cheap date. And so I'm just really easy to please and delight. I think like I also love saving money. And I didn't think about that until I had to categorize myself. I like seeing money in my bank account.
I love paying off debt. I love finding affordable deals and alternatives to paying full price for things. So like, I think I'm an experiential splurge. But we're going to have to get into that deeper.
Friend: Yeah. We'll have to go there a little bit more. Maybe we need some more dimensions. Maybe it needs to be 3d graph, but it sounds like you're not splurging in the sense of dollar figures.
Like you're spending thousands and thousands, but you're spending in a way that feels like a reward.
Megan: Yes.
Friend: So you're spending to reward yourself, not that it's high dollars, but it feels like a splurge because it's something special. Oh, that's cool. That's all right. That's not a financial planner's worst nightmare.
Megan: No. So then, like I put myself there and then I realized I, I was kind of incorrect, which is good again, we're trying to prove ourselves wrong. Okay. So where can our listeners find the graphics that we're talking about? If they want the visual?
Friend: Yeah , good question. They're going to be linked in the show notes for this episode, episode two, or they can go to art by megan.com forward slash podcast.
And look for The Art$ Free Resources.
Megan: Yes, go check it out.
Friend: Yeah. Okay. Well thank you Megan, for indulging us. I don't know if those were too basic or super basic, but I think it helped us get to the core foundation for future discussions so that we can go back to, you know, the artists, the gatekeepers, that kind of thing. And some of the labels that maybe we'll try to be conscious of and stay away from.
Otherwise I think I'm the kid in the back of the class with their hand up being like "What's BEDMAS?"
Megan: she's like putting math jokes into this podcast. Okay. I used to skip math class, like not actually skip class, cause I was too good of a person and nervous, but I would, you know, go to the bathroom or whatever and go to the art room and then they would find me. They're like on the PA like a hundred back. It's really bad.
Friend: And I would be like, do I have to go to art?
Megan: It's just such an interesting, time travel to be like, wow, you really should have pursued that harder ding-dong. Okay. Well, speaking of math and skipping, and maybe, you know, being at the back of the class, we're going to have a little homework. Okay. Let me tell you - my older child's school went virtual again and I've lost my beep. So I purchased things off of the internet to fill a void. That was my homework assignment.
I'm not kidding. Like I have nothing to say. I didn't do my homework.
Friend: Wait is that emotional spending?
Megan: Oh my God, episode 12.
Friend: All right. That's cool.
Megan: I mean, what about you? Or you were doing something interesting reading. How'd that go?
Friend: I also had a little trouble with homework in that I finished the book, but it wasn't that interesting. Like it couldn't really pull out something I wanted to share with this audience. So, sorry.
Megan: No, it's okay. Wauh homework. It's okay. All right. I'm going to assign you and our listeners, some homework relating to our topic for today. How's that sound?
Friend: Oh, that sounds good.
Megan: Okay. This week, you're going to try and notice how many times you compliment someone.
Friend: Just notice?
Megan: Yeah, just notice it.
Friend: Like, I don't have to load a spreadsheet report my spreadsheet calculator. I mean, keep doing okay. Just notice.
So how many times I compliment someone about anything or about their art?
Megan: I mean, let's go with anything.
Friend: All right. Just compliments. And I'm going to like go around complimenting everyone so that my number looks really high.
Megan: She wants like really metrics bonus points.
Friend: Yep. All right. I can do that.
Megan: Okay. So we're just bringing some awareness and we're not going to talk about spreadsheets until next time.
Friend: Well, that brings us to the end of our second episode. We hope you enjoyed part one of Labels and Language. Megan. Thanks again for educating me and our listeners.
Megan: Join us again next week for discussion on Part Two of Labels and Language.
Friend: Yes. I'm going to let Megan grill me on what we mean when we say finance or when we call someone a banker.
Megan: Until then this is Megan of Art by Megan.
Friend: And her friend, your patron of the arts.
Megan: Wishing you more art.
Friend: And maybe a better understanding of your money.
Megan: If you enjoy The Art$, please like, follow, rate, or review us wherever you get your podcasts.
This is the most important way you can support us as a new show.
Friend: The Art$ is a production by the Art by Megan studio. This podcast was created, produced, recorded, and researched by Megan and her friend, and edited by Hanna Nakano. The views in this recording are the personal views of the co-hosts and their guests. Their commentary is provided for general informational purposes only and does not constitute financial investment tax or legal advice, nor does it constitute an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any art or financial products. In other words, we're doing this for fun and we hope you enjoy it, but you should still call your account. And your mother.