Episode 003 - Labels and Language (Part 2)
Megan interviews Friend about financial labels and language and what it’s like to be a woman in banking. Friend shares a simple analogy for finance, and answers the question, if finance was a sport, what sport would it be? We find no resolution to the same question for art.
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Show Notes
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Artist Alma Thomas
The Phillips Collection - “Everything is Beautiful”
The Obama Portraits Tour - extended and now runs through October 2022
LACMA (Los Angeles County Museum of Art)
Confessions of an Art Addict by Peggy Guggenheim
“Demystification” - totally a word: to eliminate the mystifying features of.
The Art$’ Money-Talk Comfort Scale is on our Free Resources page
Homework: Read profiles about some of the influential women in finance:
100 Most Influential Women in U.S. Finance
The Most Powerful Women in Finance
Or, read about Janet Yellen.
We would love to hear from you! Email us your questions and ideas at podcast at artbymegan dot com
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Arts 003 - Labels and Language (Part 2)
Friend: Episode 3, Labels and Language, Part 2.
Megan: Very excited about this.
Friend: I'm excited too..
Megan: Hey, Friend.
Friend: Hey Megan.
Megan: I've been looking forward to this last week. We dove into the topic of labels relevant to the arts and creative people.
Friend: Yes we did. And you were good about answering all of our questions. Thank you. I enjoyed that.
Megan: I love a long answer.
Friend: I love a long question.
Megan: Okay. Well, you're in the right place. So two long-winded ladies just chatting away. This week you, my friend are in the hot seat. I'm grilling you about all the things in the financial sector. Every topic, this will be a nine hour episode.
Friend: I'm ready. Yeah. I think we should just go for it. We're doing what we're doing. It's working, so let's just keep rolling.
Megan: All right. Episode 3.
Friend: I think what we should do before we get too much into the finance is look at The Scene.
Megan: Yes.
Friend: So that's our version of what's nerdy and cool with the artists and the financiers.
Megan: And if we have time at the end, we should check in on our homework assignments from last week. Did you do your homework?
Friend: Yes. Yes. Ma'am. I mean, I always, no actually I never did homework. No, I didn't. I just couldn't really be bothered.
Megan: Wait..
Friend: Even in university.
Megan: Oh, so you were like one of those smart kids that just like got away with it?
Friend: No, I just chose topics where if you didn't do the homework, you could still pass the exams.
Megan: (Shocking!) No, this is really illuminating. I would've never guessed.
Friend: Did you do yours?
Megan: All of it. And more. Okay. I am the perfect A minus student.
Friend: Well, I would expect that you can't really be a teacher and a bad student at the same time.
Megan: I love school .Still. I just love it. I like smell school supplies.
Okay. Checking back in.
Friend: So The Scene,
I am interested to know what is happening in your Scene this week.
Megan: Okay. I went to an amazing art show in DC. I would like to also brag that I brought not one, but two children with me, my own, my children and they behaved as children do when they've, you know, been in a pandemic and not out of the home much.
And the gallery was extra quiet and they were shouting from the rooftops about their love of rainbows and colorful art. It was a full experience for me and the guests.
Friend: Yeah. That would have brought some life.
Megan: It was really something. We went to the Phillips collection in DC and we saw a show called Everything is Beautiful, which is a collection of the Alma Thomas paintings.
Alma Thomas is an artist who was sort of famous during her lifetime in DC, but sort of like micro, famous, but honestly, her work is unbelievable. She's wonderful with color and like, you know, I love color. She also is super famous because Michelle Obama was the first First Lady to select her work.
She was the first black woman artist to have her painting hung in the White House. So that's just like mindblowing also. Yes, that was 2008.
Friend: Yes. I, my jaw just dropped. I just did a silent gasp. That can be true. 2000 and eight. Not that many years ago.
Megan: Right. Like, Ooh. So that's a tough, a tough pill to swallow, but she's amazing.
And now famous as a result of that support. So sometimes that's what it takes.
Friend: Wow. And you said the Phillips Collection - is that its own standalone.. It is ...place?
Megan: You have to pay to enter, which is shocking for DC because we know all the museums are free.
Friend: Yeah, they're mostly free.
Megan: So people from DC slash where I'm from like on the edge of DC are very hoity-toity about paying for museums. We're very funny. Cause they're were like, you have to pay, it's not normal for us.
Friend: Yeah. Oh, that's a whole episode on its own paying for entry to see art.
Megan: Yes.
Friend: I have lots of questions for you, but that sounds amazing. I will look up Alma Thomas and we'll also share some of her. I'm sure. There's a way we can link to her work or..
Megan: Yeah, the Phillips Collection did a wonderful feature on her with interactive stuff for kids, adults.
It's great. So we'll link to it in the show notes. All right. What have you been reading and thinking about or seeing lately?
Friend: Yeah. Well, to stay on theme, I recently saw the Obama portraits again. Yes. So fantastic. I had seen them once when they were in DC at the Smithsonian's National Portrait Gallery. But he was in with the other men in the America's Presidents exhibit. And she was off on our own. Side note. Can we talk to your daughter about how I would totally vote for her and we can end this?
Megan: No, she can be a guest on the show. Like she would be thrilled. She'd have to like schedule us in. She's working right now.
Friend: She can tell us about what is happening in art and finance at school.
Megan: I'm not kidding you like this child is an adult. I don't understand.
Friend: Yeah. So I would like to see her portrait. There you go into the America's Presidents exhibit and it's all men, obviously. So Michelle's portrait was in another place in the museum, but these ones now they're on tour. So they're on tour together. The portrait of Barack and the portrait of Michelle. And, um, I should probably call him The President, right? Sorry, sorry.
Megan: No, it's fine. He probably would like it. He seems chill.
Friend: All right. So this traveling exhibit of their portraits, it's called the Obama Portraits Tour.
And it features Kehinde Wiley. He did the portrait of Obama and Amy Sherald did the portrait of Michelle. I was in Chicago. They were there this summer. I couldn't get tickets then the tour came to Brooklyn. I totally duffed it and did not get tickets in time. And, and then I was in LA and they were in LA at the LA County Museum of Art, and I could get tickets. So made it to see them there. They're going on to Atlanta and Houston, and they're going to be in Houston until the end of May. So we'll share that information. But I thought it was really awesome. They had them displayed side by side in the LA County Museum of Art, and it was less crowded than it was in the National Portrait Gallery. And then after you had your moment appreciating those two portraits, they funneled you into another exhibit called Black-American Portraits. And yes, I will tell you about that next time. But basically I stood there in front of the Obama portraits long enough until it got awkward, uh, for my husband and the security guards.
Megan: I feel like that's just mission accomplished right there.
That's perfect. That's the whole point of art though, is that you should be that lost in it and feel a tiny bit embarrassed or not. Like, sorry. I have to stare at this longer.
Friend: Yeah, exactly. Like I'm not ready to move on.
Megan: Yeah.
Friend: How's it going with your morning pages?
Megan: Okay. I'm working my way through it. You're supposed to read this book weekly. I don't know if you remember that it's like segmented by week. I don't have the brain or the willpower for that. So I sort of, I've been skipping ahead only because I know what topics I really need to hit home on.
Friend: Impatient overachiever.
Megan: But I also know that I don't need to work on inspiration, but I do need to work on like, shame. We'll talk about that later episode, 10 shame. Um, okay. I'm also reading Peggy Guggenheim memoir called confessions of an art addict, which is shocking, fascinating, eccentric, bizarre. I mean, all the things you would expect of this woman, that's also, hashtag goals.
Like I just want to be an old woman in Venice, with my 12 dogs, just chilling with my art collection, you know, just what a, what a legend. So.
Friend: Okay. Now is the point in the show where I admit, I don't know who you're talking about. I mean, Guggenheim museum, right? Yes.
Megan: No, that's good. This is good.
This is actually quite on theme for today when we're going to be talking about finance. So Peggy Guggenheim was like the original art collector. She was sort of like, um, socialite in new York's art scene, who very creatively collected art and befriended people like Jackson Pollock, and like the abstract expressionists women. And Max Ernst, another really famous painter who was like rescued from World War Two. She was very revolutionary and progressive and wild.
Friend: She was The patron of the arts.
Megan: Like patron of the arts in the way where she was like smuggling people across borders. Like her memoir is kind of awesome, but kind of intense if you're not in the mood to read about know, extremely wealthy, entitled white woman.
Friend: Is she the one that left all her money to her dogs?
Megan: She in fact left a lot of money to dogs.
Friend: Maybe not all her money
Megan: Lots of dollars was left with the dogs. I don't know if that's where I'd put it, but...
Friend: I mean interesting, but hey , if you have so much, you can be generous to all.
Megan: Yes. We will link to Peggy and her memoir in the show notes though. So people can dive into her crazy world.
Friend: Oh, it sounds interesting. Good. All right. Well I'm hoping that, uh, at some point I'll be able to walk around with you at 80 and have a friend who is so
Megan: covered in dog
Friend: Eccentric. Yes.
Megan: I don't actually want that many dogs.
I do want to be like gondolad around, you know. Okay. Also one more thing is that I'm, I'm really leaning into non-fiction this year. Is there something happening in my brain?
Friend: Well, I, I, you should talk to your therapist, but that
Megan: I am.
Friend: I'm not sure, but maybe you need more of a rested brain to read non-fiction and maybe it's that time of the year. I don't know.
Megan: Okay. All right. Cool.
Friend: All right.
Megan: Well, I love your brain.
Friend: Well, yours too.
Megan: All right, let's do this
Friend: The Main Exhibit.
All right. Well, for this, uh, for this episode, my brain is your pick because we're about to swap roles from our last episode, right?
Megan: Yes, it is my turn to explore your world and my apologies in advance for not sounding confident at all with this terminology, because, I'm going to ask you questions. That don't make sense. That'll be fun for you.
Friend: No problem. Do you know, that's not the first time someone said that to me today. Actually this happens. Yeah. It happened at work today earlier. No problem. I'm ready. So we may as well start. What we are going to do as a really.
special treat for our listeners at the end of this episode is that we're going to be giving you all a special code, which you can redeem at your nearest college or university for Finance 1 0 1 credit. And those who leave us a review for our podcasts will get an A.
Megan: She is tricky.
Friend: Okay. Not really. I wish we could maybe someday, but, seriously, I've been looking forward to this. I hope it won't get too boring. I'm going to try to drop the word, " trending" or "sale" or something every once in a while just to keep everyone awake.
Megan: That might work.
Okay. First step. My first question is very general, but what inspired you to enter the world of Finance? You can get as personal or juicy as you'd like with this answer.
Friend: Well, to start, I would take issue slightly kindly with the word inspired. What inspired me to enter finance? I wouldn't say that I was inspired. I would say that I was incentivized or maybe motivated, influenced other things, but it wasn't inspiring. Sorry to disappoint.
Megan: That's very interesting.
Friend: In one way it was sort of accidental. Like it wasn't really what I thought I wanted to be when I grew up, maybe it was even mercenary, like something I needed to do to get certain outcomes I wanted.
But isn't that interesting, right off the bat, we're defaulting to different verbs. Like we have different starting position. I don't even like inspired. I don't know.
Megan: I respect that. I don't think you have to justify why you choose to do it for a living.
Friend: Okay, good.
Megan: I think that's the whole point is that we have choice. So as women, we should just be like, I can do what I would like to try and do.
Friend: Yeah, I think I really was like, I can, and it will be nice. So why don't I try it? You can always leave, right? Like you can always try something and leave. I just didn't happen to leave. I just stuck around.
Megan: It's very interesting.
Friend: I liked it, yeah.
Megan: That's cool.
Friend: Yeah. I thought we could maybe, just pause there. We've already dropped the first word, this word finance.
Exactly. That can mean different things to different people. And, uh, actually I think it's a contraction of something else that we use to mean something else.
Is that fine if we just do like a quick, like one-on-one and what do we mean when we say, okay, so the first thing to remember is that finance is a subset of business. So like the other day you were talking about how sewing is in with craft craft is a subset of the arts, right? So it's the same: finance is a subset of business.
And so it fits into the business world and it fits in alongside a lot of other things that we're very comfortable with and that we talk about and have interactions with a little more easily. it's just an area of specialty within business. So when someone says I'm in finance, it's like, I, I work in the business world.
Megan: I don't know why I never thought of that before, but continue.
Friend: I had never articulated before until we were planning for this episode. So hopefully that will help a few people right off the bat, easy wins. And then if you think about, okay, so what else, like, what are the other pieces of business, or if you think about running a business, the other things that we would probably all more easily identify with are the siblings or the peers of finance are things like sales, marketing strategy, right?
Technology, human resources, and then, you know, finance, it fits right in there. It's just one piece of managing or running a bit.
Megan: Oh, my gosh, mind blown.
Friend: So hopefully so far, that's not so scary because it's just like one, one thing that we all have to do to keep the business going. We have to have sales. We have to have people who manage our people. That's human resources. We need to manage the technology. Well, we also need to manage the money. Right?
Megan: Yeah.
Friend: So I have an analogy for you. And some of our, maybe finance, tepid friends. So bear with me, let me know if this, if this is good, if not, I won't repeat it.
Megan: It will never be spoken of, again.
Friend: Here's what I was thinking when I was thinking, okay, well, how do we make an analogy for this? So finance is basically like the motherhood role of business. So if businesses, the family or the family unit and money is the children, right? Our precious assets, those are the children, the money, then to grossly generalize on the family unit roles, the dads are sales and marketing and they're having the fun. Right. And the moms are finance.
Megan: Oh my God.
Friend: Like the moms, the moms ..
Megan: I'm drawing this for you, but this is beautiful.
Friend: Please draw it! I have words, but you know, no visual representation.
So finance, like motherhood is just the work of managing those assets. You know, those most precious assets, right? So you're solving for. Procuring the asset. Right, because let's face it, women do the journey of infertility, you know? So finances, like, okay, let's, let's gather the money. Saving it, spending it, investing it, growing it, all of that is finance. It's financial management. It's managing the money for the business.
Megan: Awesome.
Friend: So then what follows from that is personal finance is the way you manage your personal money, your personal assets and corporate finance is the way corporations manage their money.
So if someone is working in finance for their day job, like me, they're working in a role that is helping a company manage the assets.
Megan: Oh!
Friend: And then just to go one more level down, hopefully this is not too painful so far. So far so good, I'll just check in, check in with the audience, right? So then within finance, that management of the money, you have this, group of service providers that come alongside the corporates to help them manage their assets.
And so because it's a service for people in finance, right. People managing the money, it's often referred to as financial services. And so it's a little confusing, but that's what I mean by contraction is that we often just say finance, really what we're talking about is financial services.
And to really double down on the family unit analogy, financial services is the nanny.
Megan: I wish I was like a YouTube video.
Friend: I mean, I could see it. I saw your jaw drop.
Megan: I was like mouth, a jar: nanny!? But that's so true because you think of it as like your raising the money for the people while the, primary investor cannot.
Friend: Right. Exactly. So financial service providers are companies like banks, fund managers, mortgage brokers, right? We all know mortgage brokers, insurance agents, accountants, financial planners, right? Those are all accessible terms that we know. Those are all financial service providers. Those are the nannies like there there's subspecialties of the financial services industry of finance, of business.
That's all, all in your stack there.
Megan: So cool. So far. So do the best drawing. I just can't wait to put this into my little..
Friend: Can you place me then in this subspecialty of banking?
Megan: Yes.
Friend: Okay. That's the type of nanny that helps you drive your kids around to all their activities, tutors them on their homework and makes sure that they can be well-rounded and get into the best colleges. Like a governess. That's what a bank does. They're shepherding the funds, helping you invest and grow.
Megan: I don't want like this $20. Child to stay at the same value. I want to increase value over time.
Friend: Exactly. Right. They've got to mature. Yeah, exactly.
Megan: Love, love it.
Friend: For the purposes of this podcast, much of that experience in the management of risk and money and making decisions, and dealing with the people that I deal with at the bank can be translated back into managing an arts or a more creative based business. So what we're hoping is that that type of management skill will be helpful to the listeners to have that insight of like how it works in corporate, but why I need you is that that experience doesn't necessarily translate into finding my own inner artist.
Megan: There is probably something to say about this, right? The whole left brain, right. Brain conversation, and to help people. This is again another episode, but like how people are labeled as being gifted or adept in one, right. It's like, you're almost at birth assigned this, like you're good at X. So you are like this, but I don't know.
I see creativity in some of the things you're mentioning. It's just interesting. Not traditional quote unquote traditional.
Friend: Yeah. Well, and in the end, you know, finance is a science it's mathematical, but it's also an art there's also judgment involved and you can come up with creative ways of doing things.
So anyways, before we digress, I just want to check and say, does that make sense? That analogy - does that hang together okay.
Megan: The analogy is perfect, honestly, because. I love any analogy. You've seen the movie My Big Fat greek wedding, right?
Yes.
Oh my gosh. You know, in that scene where the mom is telling Tula, like go to college or whatever, and she's like, you must understand the mother is the neck.
The father may be the head of the family. The mother is the neck and she turns the head every way, whatever. But like, it's such a good analogy because women for ever have been told that they're not good with money or women are not good with math or women are not smart or whatever. We've been told all this garbage when in fact we've been running it forever and by it, I mean the show.
So it's just such a strange double messaging where you're like actually in charge of every decision in your family and business, but sometimes you've been put into this category of maybe not knowing what you're talking about. Not you personally, but women. Very interesting. Okay. So tell me more things about why finance?
Friend: I guess it's unlike in one way, many other professions where you need to certify.
So if you think about law or medicine, accounting, you have to recertify or go back to school. If you want to work in a new country or new jurisdiction, and for many of the roles in finance, you don't have to do that and you just show up and you bring your suit and your spreadsheets and you get to work.
And why that's relevant is that. I love to be on the move and see the world. And numbers are country agnostic. You can work with numbers anywhere. I just wanted to be able to do something that would allow me to be on the move with my career and be flexible.
Megan: It's universal.
Friend: It's universal. Exactly.
Megan: Very shocking. Again, I did not think of it that way.
Friend: Yeah. It was basically a lifestyle choice. It was something that, I don't know if we learn this when we're looking at options for our career, no one said to me , "well, how do you want to live ?" What kind of life do you want to have? Right. So then that career might not be great for you. If you want to have this lifestyle. Well the lifestyle I basically wanted was, I want to see the world and have work that challenges my brain.
Megan: Yeah.
Friend: And so it was like, that's what I, when I mean lifestyle choice, I don't mean like, you know, show me all the money and buy me all the nice clothes. I mean, like challenge me and keep me on the move.
Megan: I love that. That's why we're friends, emotional moments, but really that's interesting.
Friend: We have that in common those two things, right. You've just found a way to get that outcome differently. It's the same outcome. Like you can, I mean, you're going to Paris, right? You were in Spain. You can paint anywhere.
Megan: Yeah. And the universality of it is very, very interesting because I think that's so such a power move, right. To be like, I'm going to pick something actually that translates literally anywhere.
Friend: Yeah.
Megan: So wild.
Friend: Yeah. At the beginning, I wasn't sure I would be able to stick with it because the hours are long and it is hard work and you're working with some very sharp people and personalities, but I found my way to survive and then to thrive.
And then, you know, you get to have all the benefits that come with it.
Megan: One thing just, we need to remember for future episodes is to interview someone who's very young not to give them advice. Maybe not like a child, but like a person on the, on the edge of college or at the edge of like that decision where you're like really about what am I going to do with my life?
Because a it's just so funny to think back, like from the get go, what did you decide? And then what are you now? You know, there's just like such a. Nonlinear path, even if you tried to be the most linear. So it's just, it's just such an interesting perspective because we are much older and wiser.
Friend: Yeah. And I didn't go immediately into it. I thought I wanted to save the world and work at a nonprofit, you know, after business school. And then I was like, no, this is no good.
Megan: Well the funny thing about saving the world is again, that can be done from like 24 angles.
Friend: It can also be done after you've made the money or after you've made the contacts and made it, you know, so
Megan: it's very interesting.
Friend: It wasn't. Pure altruism that got me here.
Megan: But the output now is altruistic. So it's like you either start or end with the same motive. Right. That's very interesting. Okay. Let's skip then ahead to the next big question I have, which is like the misconception. So for art, we talked about how a lot of times the word artists can be used sort of like a derogatory term or to mean certain things. Right? So what misconceptions have you encountered in the financial world?
Friend: Yeah. A lot, a lot from people who, you know, you go to a dinner party and someone's like, what do you do?
I work in finance, like end of conversation, like turn the other way, turn to whoever's sitting on your other side.
Megan: That's so that's like a bummer.
Friend: But that's one of them is that people think it's boring or they don't know how to have a conversation with someone who works in the field: it must be boring work.
I also get you know, people think it's mostly men and you know, there's reason for that, but it's not necessarily true anymore. I think that people think that people working in the jobs like the Wall Street film, you know, Michael Douglas back in the eighties, it's all about the money and the nice clothes and the fancy cars and, you know, the people working in there, just in it for the money and, you know, maybe they don't stop and self-reflect on how they can help others.
And, maybe that's true. There's probably a portion of people who go in it for that and stay in it for that. And it's mostly young, young and hungry, like in my experience, it's the newer hires that are more likely to come into it with that. But, I don't want to try to debunk them all, but I mean, I would say that there's -
Megan: But you're saying there's more to it obviously then the stereotype time. Yeah.
Friend: Yeah.
Megan: Which is factual information about every stereotype.
Friend: Yeah, exactly. Spoiler alert. It's not all true. I also think that people think it's really hard and hard in a way that it's not accessible. Like, oh, I couldn't do that. I think people think it's harder than it actually, is it. If I were to, can I use another analogy? I'm really outdoing myself.
Megan: Love it.
Friend: If I were to think of finance as a sport, I would say, it's an endurance race. Sometimes you sprint and it's kind of a panic, but it's an endurance.. Can you keep up with the hours and having your brain pushed to its limits and, constant negotiation and so on, but it's not like weightlifting, it's not heavyweight lifting or gymnastics backflips, you know, it's just like go out for a run and keep running.
Megan: And that's really hard, but...
Friend: okay. So I am a runner.
Megan: She's also a runner, but I think it takes that kind of mind is what you're saying. It's like a consistent, dedicated mind.
Friend: Yeah. I don't think that everyone can go out and do backflips.
Megan: No!
Friend: Or pull (I'd die) trucks with their strength. Do you know? But I do think that. With a little training,
most people can go out for a jog.
Megan: Yes, I agree. I know it's more accessible than then we would think. That's interesting. I'm sorry. I got so distracted while you were saying that too, because all I was thinking about was what sports analogy is an artist. And TBD, I have no idea. I was thinking like modern dance.
I was like, that's so weird.
Friend: Oh, I think you could be like interpretive. Anyway, you come back to us on that one. That's fine.
Megan: Oh yeah. Okay. So we're going to play a little game called, "Are the following jobs in finance?"
Friend: Okay.
Megan: Listeners, you may recall this game from the, are these jobs, artists episode two part one.
Okay, here we go. Running a small business? Yes, or no finance?
Friend: Yes. When you are working on the finances of the business.
Megan: Right. A person who invests in Bitcoin?
Friend: If it's for a hobby, if it's for their personal, I would say no, but if it's something they're doing on behalf of an institution, yes.
Megan: Why?
Friend: Because it's speculative investment work in either case. If you're doing it on behalf of an institution, you have controls and governance and policies, and someone looking over your shoulder and you have a risk appetite and you have rules around..
Megan: You have like data that you have to report back on. It's not just ..
Friend: Right. It's not just like, that's right it's not for fun.
Megan: Right.
Friend: It is for a return and you are required in your role to make a return. Whereas if you're just like my friend who plays around with it for fun, just to see what's happening.
Megan: Right.
Friend: He doesn't have the same guard rails. It's basically a factor of guard rails.
Megan: Interesting. Kind of like how we talked about the gatekeepers.
Friend: I was just thinking that, and someone might disagree with me, but that's my it's being asked the question so..
Megan: Well, we are the experts.
Friend: Yes, in this moment.
Megan: No. I mean, like we decided that we were the whole fun part about being like the CEO of ground business.
Okay. Someone who collects art, vintage rugs or watches?
Friend: I would say it depends on the reason for the collection. So are they collecting it out of, is it a passion? Is it an interest? Is it something they're doing for themselves or are they doing it for the future value of it? and if they're doing it in a way where they're expecting a return on the investment, then it still wouldn't be a job, but they would be, you know, investing, making a financial investment.
Megan: Finance adjacent. An accountant for a school.
Friend: Yes. Because they are managing the money for the school.
Megan: Right.
Friend: They're the mom.
Megan: And it's like very important as far as not misusing those funds. I can imagine there's a bit of like, um, pressure.
Friend: Exactly. And I've got one or two accountants that I think we should hear from, but accountants are definitely on the finance side. They are the people who know where your money is and where it should be.
Megan: Right.
Friend: Where it's going and where it should be going.
Megan: Yes. Okay. A person who analyzes fraud for the government or a private company?
Friend: Yes. I'm interpreting that as financial fraud. And so yes, they're trying to investigate.
Where is the money? Where is it going? So, yes, they're, they're managing the money.
Megan: Okay. And then my last one was just like COVID related, but a financial analyst, but they work from home forever and ever. Always have always will in their sweat pants.
Friend: Yes. Yes. I know. I mean, highly paid, sweatpant wearer yes, yes.
Megan: What a life. All right. Well, there, we have it.
Friend: And I'm sure a number of firms are hiring for those exact kind of roles where they don't care what you're wearing on the bottom half.
Megan: It's like the COVID mullet.
Friend: Yeah, exactly.
Megan: I'm dying to ask you two questions. What are the best parts of being in finance? And what about being in this world really like gets you all fired?
Friend: Good question. The best part for me is getting to work with really smart people. That really gets me going. I learned so much just by being in meetings and by meeting people, listening to them, being challenged by their perspective. I think the vast majority of people that I've worked with and people in finance, they're trying to do the best they can for the investors and for the clients.
And, so, well, we might have, we might challenge each other a lot to get to that best outcome. They're doing it for the right reasons, you know, they're trying to manage risk and make sure that they're making prudent decisions. And I think, wow, how lucky am I to just like observe these minds at work?
Megan: Yeah.
Friend: I also love change and variety. I don't know that I could do the same thing over and over and over and over. And the banks, they have to keep adapting because the sector adapts it's been changed by technology and it will continue to do so and also regulations and the rules.
So those regulations are just like the rules we have to play by, right. The, the rules of the game. And so they have to keep changing what they do internally. And I love that. I love that constant change and innovation from within. I think it's just so exciting. Like that really gets me going. I just find there's always something interesting to do.
And if one role starts to get, you know, you've accomplished it and it gets a little flat or same, same, then there's gonna be 10 other interesting roles that you can move into. Yeah. And then, as I mentioned, the travel you know, many of these large banks have customers all over the world and, offices in major cities, right? So we have employees everywhere. We've got offices, we have clients. And so what that means is that usually there's travel involved, not for every role, but, many of the ones that I've been in have been, maybe I, maybe that's one of my selection criteria. But you know, they have like temporary travel, short-term business trips and basically they let us be exchange students.
Megan: That's so cool. That is very cool. See you're totally selling it. I'm like quit job as artist. And then there's the money part.
Friend: Yes, yes. And the money. The salaries comparative to many other professions, maybe law and medicine would be up there, but compared to many you become a high earner. But the top three for me is really the people, the variety and the travel.
Megan: I'm really Interested in the role of women in your world, especially because in my inaccurate stereotype, it's a very male dominated world. So tell me more about that.
Friend: Yeah, that's a great question. Really interesting topic. We could probably do the history of women in finance or how it's changing all on its own, but I'll try to give you a quick history of, women in finance and then some of my takeaways about what it's like to work in, what I think people think of as a male dominated field.
It's changed a lot just in one generation in our lifetime, even, both from a career and from a consumer perspective. So career like women working in the field, but consumer like women, women going to the bank. I think it was like mid sixties in Canada in the U S and it was 1975 in the UK when women received the right to open up their own bank accounts without having their husband's permission.
Megan: Oh my gosh.
Friend: That is not that long ago. Right? That means that our grandmothers, if I'm doing the math, right, our grandmothers had like tweens/ teenagers before they could have their own bank accounts, so they can like go in and open a bank account with their teenager. Cause they both had the right at the same time to do it. Right. Like that's not that long ago.
Megan: Wild.
Friend: So what that means is that until very recently finance and banking in particular is what I'm talking about now. But it was an industry of men serving men. And so that's fine. Right? If the men are all clients, I don't know, like. Hmm, maybe this is going to sound wrong, but like, do you need women working?
Like if men, if women are not the consumers, I don't know if we're that bothered about, women work- I don't know, to me it's a little related. Does that make sense?
Megan: It's like, it just wasn't our world.
Friend: Yeah, from either perspective, either as a work option or as a customer. I don't know if maybe the progress in both of those areas was related or not, but there has been progress in both areas. Right? So from a career perspective, women who are our mothers age now, when they were making decisions about their careers, they would have been unlikely to see executive management at a bank as one of their options.
It just wasn't what they were being prepared for in school and, and just socially.
Megan: Right.
Friend: Do you know anybody, can you think of women in their 50s, 60s, 70s who ran a bank or was a manager at a bank? And not a branch.
Megan: No.
Friend: Yeah. Me neither, I was thinking about it as we were preparing you. I don't know of any who started that way. I know some women in their fifties now who are there.
Megan: Right. They're now but they didn't get out of college and start there.
Friend: Right. And so I thought, okay, well, what were they hearing? Like what were their influences when they were trying to decide on their career and when they were in college or university.
And so in, in like mid sixties, early seventies, we started to have equal pay for equal work. Right? So before then that wasn't even a concept that men and women would get paid the same for doing the same job. The first - yeah, head smack, the first time a woman worked on the New York Stock Exchange was late sixties.
In 1968, a rule came into effect where you can no longer specify what kind of gender you wanted when you were hiring. So up to 1968, you could say, this is for men only. Women. Women need not apply. 1972 was the first time that a woman became a CEO of a Fortune 500 company. And that was Katherine Graham of the Washington Post.
Then we had equal credit opportunity. So what that means is that men and women have the same, availability of credit. Like you don't have to bring your dad with you to get a credit card that was 1974. Right. We didn't have a, a woman owned commercial bank until 1975 in New York. We didn't sort out the pregnancy discrimination issues until almost 1980. Sexual harassment wasn't really dealt with and defined until, you know what I mean? Like there wasn't, there wasn't really an environment for women to work in this industry in a fair and safe way.
Megan: Wow. Which then, you know, trickles down like this. It's like, it's like, it takes so much time. Maybe the law is enacted. And then like all of a sudden we realized that it still hasn't really taken hold.
Friend: Exactly. So between, let's say the eighties, and this is what I mean about in our lifetime, like in the last 30 to 40 years, the role in the eighties and nineties, I think of women working in finance, if they dared, was to break down the barriers and show that it was possible to not just be a secretary, but to be a trader, you know, to trade on the New York stock exchange or to be A fund manager, right. Like to actually manage money, and to really be a pioneer in a new space.
So, yeah. So this is all great. that's kind of the like, wow. There's some really great news here, right? Today for the modern listener, the women in finance, the role of women in finance, it looks very different. We had in 2017, the first female CEO of a global stock exchange was put in place.
Last year, last year, like 2020, 2021 was the first time a woman became CEO at a top tier bank. Right. Like that. That took a long time, but it's great news it's happened now. Okay. Let's you know, um, meanwhile, we're still waiting for a female president, right?
Megan: Right.
Friend: Many other countries have already solved that one, but in the U S, no.
So, as of today, of the fortune 500, so that's 500 companies, right. There are 41 female CEOs, which is low, but it's 41. It was remember it was (it's better than of the zero), zero, right? Like Katherine Graham was the first one ever in 1972. So 41 is, it's not enough but it's something.
Megan: Interesting.
Friend: And then what's interesting is that we're starting to get profiling of women in finance and media coverage, and it's starting to become, I don't want to say news, but it's starting to become interesting regular reading, you know, like the 30, under 30, 40, under 40, they have that same thing for women in finance.
So there's a hundred women in finance, most powerful women in finance. Most influential women in fin- there's a bunch of these publications and we'll link to them in the show notes, but I think that's really cool. And they profile the women. It's not just like, here's their name, you know, it's like you can read about their career journey.
And then finally, what I am most excited about and for all our RBG fans this will probably be meaningful to you. We have who I like to think of as the RBG of finance in Janet Yellen. She was the first Chair of the Federal Reserve, which is the central bank in the U S and she is now the US Treasury Secretary, which means that she like the Treasury is the pot of money.
Megan: Right.
Friend: Right. And, she served as chair on the Economic Council under Clinton. She's the only person ever to have all three of those roles. Right. So she's like Janet Yellen is my superhero. So you know, that's a lot, that's a lot of good news.
Megan: I mean, there's a lot of good change. It's hard to watch change happen slowly, right? We're seeing this 1970s timeline thinking, holy crap, it takes this long, but better than not, I guess is my takeaway.
Friend: Yeah. Better than not exactly. There's one area where I think we're still not there. And that is that in the entry-level roles in finance, we have a really good split.
It's a very even 50 /50, depending on which sub-sector like, if you're in cash management or payments versus if you're in a hedge fund or if you're in a bank, but on average, it's like a 50/ 50 split of entry-level roles between men and women, which is amazing. So the, the financial services industry is hiring equal numbers of men and women. And that means that women are applying for the roles and getting them. Right.
Megan: Right.
Friend: That's awesome.
Megan: Huge.
Friend: But, and this is where I think the work has to come and it will come hopefully still in our lifetime: the ratio of men to women changes as you get more senior.
So the more senior, the role in finance, the less likely it will be, uh, inhabited by a woman. So on the way to the top, we lose, it's like we have all these exit ramps and they just de-select, or they don't get promoted at the same rate as the men. And there's all sorts of studies about that. For every a hundred men promoted how many women, how many women of color and so on.
So we know, like we know that the women are not getting promoted at the same rate. They are also opting out, right. They're opting out for family related reasons and other reasons that they exit. So on average, so we were 50 /50 at the start. Like if you're a junior and you just started your career, 50/ 50, men, and women. On average, from what I could find in my research at those senior, like executive or C-level roles, it's like five to 10% are women. and it's not enough. Right. Especially when there's been all this work done around how women are good as executives because they make decisions in a different way from men.
And they're, you know there are many good reasons why we need more women running the industry. Unless you're in Norway, Norway is the shining silver lining here. And Norway put a rule in place in 2008, that 40% of boards of large companies had to be women. And so they've just mandated it, which is one way to get there.
And not all firms are the same. Some of them are more insistent that they have an even mix at the board level or at the top executive level. But, that's where the work is.
Megan: I think we need to have another episode with a woman who has left. I want to explore this a little bit more because I would say the reason women are not making it to the top may not have as much to do with the internal structure as societal pressure.
Friend: Yeah. I would love to hear from someone who has made the decision to leave, not because the opportunity wasn't there, but because life was hard. I think it's just a lot to be the person who manages the household and the family and the person who has this big shiny career.
Megan: Yeah. It sounds wild.
Friend: Yeah.
Megan: Super interesting. But it's hope -there's hopeful tidbits there. So that's cool.
Friend: Yeah. There's a little shining light. I think the role today for me and my peers is to just make certain that if the barriers are internal on the way to the top, that we do what we can to remove them . So more flexibility, and we're starting to be coached around managing other women, how to help remove barriers for them. It basically comes down to increased flexibility and then to just demonstrate that we will hold the door open for you. We will make it possible. Let's, let's talk about how we make it possible. If you want, if that's something you want. And just keep pointing out, there's no ceiling here. It's a self limiter. Right? If it's not something you're interested in fine no problem, but if it is, we'll make a way, I think that's really the role for today's female managers in finance.
Megan: Very interesting. And then for you personally, what was the male dominated experience? Like? What was it like? Starting out because now it might be 50 50, but when you started, was it different?
Friend: No, because when I started it, I was junior. Right. And it wasn't that it's not like I've been doing this for 30 years.
Right. So I think that for me it's been neutral skewing to positive. Like, I haven't really, I, and I know this is not everyone's experience, but I went back and I thought about my past managers. The split was, I've had four female managers and seven male managers. So it is a little bit skewed that way as I got into it. but I had one, like, there's always a story, right? Like there's always
Megan: But in every industry there's this person..
Friend: You were telling us about the gentlemen who insisted you're right. There's always, there's always that. And there was one and his specialty was trying to get every woman on the floor to cry. Like he just went around on a rampage and, you know, I mean, that was just what he did.
Megan: His jam.
Friend: Uh, side note. He did not make me cry. Um, Yeah. So there's stories, but to me, that's not the whole story. And I've had some really fabulous male managers who have been supportive and encouraging and put me forward and, you know, no drama. The best ones always encouraged me to just be myself, like manage as myself, not try to be more masculine or someone that I wasn't. So I think that I've had a really good run and I know that's just an anecdote, it's not data, but, I would say there's good there.
There's good to be found there. And if you don't find it, move.
Megan: Yeah.
Friend: Move until you find it.
Megan: Or become the kind of woman that scoots to the top and then makes sure that the environment is better. That's your advocacy, that's your like, way to change the world, right. Is to be the woman that is holding the door open and encouraging a more positive environment.
Friend: Yeah. And you have two choices there. Right? You can, if you came through a rough environment, you can perpetuate more of the same, right?
Megan: Right.
Friend: Or you can say I'm going to consciously unlearn that or provide a different environment for people that work for me. And I think it's just a choice.
Megan: Yeah. For a next question. We'll do a couple more. What are the generalizations that you personally hear in your space about women in finance?
Friend: The first one is, especially because I spent some time in investment banking, which is the sharper sharper end of things. The first one is like, women are nasty, you know?
And they're, they're like --- basically. So we'll just bleep that out.
Megan: Yeah.
Friend: And I actually asked my husband this, cause he's worked his whole career in finance as well. And I was like, what do you think some of these, you know, and we compared notes. So we agreed. We agreed that we hear often, "women are too emotional for this work."
I think that's a big one. And they're more risk averse. Women are more risk averse, which is not necessarily a negative if you're trying to manage risk.
Megan: I know.
Friend: Right. And then the one that he hears, sort of as a caution is, women will not be able to take care of both their kids and their career.
Kind of like your gentleman in the gallery, Just be careful hiring women because they'll put their kids first or something twisted.
Megan: Oh my gosh.
Friend: You know, you hear that from people as you, as you go through. And, so those are some that I've heard.
Megan: That's so wild. Um, obviously you don't really agree with the generalizations.
Friend: Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, listen, generalizations are here for a reason. They help our brains. Right. They help us to get quicker through things we have to think about. And I think they're good. And helpful until you have better information. And then you have to be willing to take down what you had put there as something you understood, as a generalization. So you, you get closer and you work with somebody and you learn and then like break off those chains of, of what you thought was so simple. I also find them, I think you mentioned this as well. Like I'm a little motivated by it.
You know, for those of us with a little rebellious streak, I want to prove you wrong. So it doesn't, it doesn't so much bother me. I kind of ignore them and just do my own thing. But if there's some point where it does have have an impact, it's because I'm like, "whatever I'm going to prove you wrong."
Megan: That's awesome. I feel like women wanting to prove people wrong is, is the wild streak that is necessary for being a happy adult. You know, like it really does help to be not to have thick skin because I kind of, I don't love that expression. Because we are compassionate people, but I feel like you have to be able to be like, no, I'm, I'm not that, here's why I'm really good at X, Y, and Z.
Friend: And just push through. Just ignore.
Megan: Okay. I have last question. Do you love what you do for a living?
Friend: Yes, I do. It's been so much more fun than I had imagined. I too thought it would be boring and there've been days, you know, there's been days. But on the whole, it's been fascinating. And you know, I think of it is a little bit like, you know, you're teaching kids to swim or teaching them to bike and then they get it and then they look back at you and they're like, "I'm doing it!"" I'm riding my bike" or "I'm swimming." You know, that look back for affirmation. That's how I feel about this work. I feel like I look back at my mentors and the people who spoke in to my life to say like, you can do it, who have helped me to get to where I am and I look back and I think like, I'm doing it, it's working and it's fun. And I enjoy it. And yeah, it's good.
Megan: I love that for you.
Friend: Yeah. And as you can tell, I love talking about it and, hopefully that wasn't too long-winded, but I really am passionate about making it accessible. It's not that hard. It's hard, but it's not that hard and we all need some sort of language around it to try to make it not so scary. There's no monsters under the bed here.
Megan: Yeah. We're all about the demystification.
Friend: Yeah.
Megan: Is that a word?
Friend: I don't know.
Megan: All right. So one of the things we're going to do here at The Art$ is continue to create that language for talking about art and money. And, you know, the discomfort zone is a big topic we're going to talk about.
So we need to revisit those graphics from the last episode. So. There were two, we started with the money and mind grid. And then there's another one. Can you describe the other one to our listeners?
Friend: Yeah, for sure. For sure. We wanted to have this common language and visuals around you know, art and money. The one that we didn't talk about last week, it's a very simple scale. It's like a one to 10 scale and it gives us a reference to think about just like a, check-in a self check-in on our comfort level about talking about money. So it's as simple as on a scale of one to 10, how comfortable are you talking about money?
At one, we have Avoid, so you're not comfortable at all. At 10 we have Embrace, so you're like, you love it. Like you want to have a big hug and talk about money. And then in the middle we have Tolerate, like I'll, you know, I'll let you talk to me but I won't enjoy it. Yeah. Where did you place yourself on the scale?
Megan: I mean, as always, I have the longest answer, but I'm gonna try and make this short. I think I'm a four, because I'm a definitely a former avoider for many reasons, but I'm definitely becoming braver. I'm learning to tolerate, I think the number's going to go up, like, even as we talk. On this podcast just talking about.
Friend: Let's check in over time and see how it changes. So four is like on the left of like Tolerate.
Megan: A former avoider becoming brave, you know, where are you on the scale? And you know, like, I know you did better than me.
Friend: Oh, I wouldn't say there's such a thing as scoring better. This is not listen, overachiever.
This is not about a perfect score. I would say maybe just more seasoned or more, you know, exposed to it. I placed myself as a nine.
Megan: Okay.
Friend: So nearly, you know, nearly a full embrace. That's a little more involved than a side hug. It's like, you can, you know, get up in my business a little and I'll get up in yours.
Megan: I like that.
Friend: I think it's exposure that got me there. I do, like I grew up in a house, where we talked about finances, the programs and the courses of study, the industry I'm in, of course, I'm also, I think I'm just a little bit awkward, where I just don't have a filter.
And so I ask stuff. My mum was on the money train early with us. She was like, here's an allowance and you have to manage that. And you know, you should tithe some money to the church and you should have a marketable skill where you're going to earn some money you can live on. That kind of thing. We think we'll talk to our moms, if they agree.
Megan: Just force them on here.
Friend: So yeah, I think, you know, this is going to be something that I'm hoping we'll start with when we have guests is to ask them, you know, where are they? And it gives us a sense for who we're dealing with. We don't want to push people too far, but, we do want to have transparent conversations and maybe eek up their tolerance a little bit.
Megan: I mean, you know, I love these visuals. It's really helped me to chart out my comfort versus discomfort, on things like talking about money or spending.
So the challenge alone is really interesting. And when you feel challenged, you kind of want to have more information about why. So this is all part of the bigger picture here. Can you remind our listeners where they can find these cool tools?
Friend: Yes. We are going to link the tools in the show notes for both episodes part one, and part two of Labels and Language.
They're also going to be hosted on art by megan.com forward slash podcast.
Megan: All right, last week I assigned a simple homework task where you had to notice how many times you complimented someone or used the word "creative." How'd you do?
Friend: Um, well sort of fail on the complimenting. But you look lovely today.
Megan: This is too late.
Friend: There, not so bad, too late? I just got it in right now. I found myself complimenting my mother and my husband, which I think is okay. I wasn't so comfortable at work. I just, I think I get task-oriented and I just don't stop and verbalize what I'm seeing.
And I see things like I see, oh, that person looked nice or whatever, but I, I don't, uh, verbalize it.
Megan: I mean, I think I'm just like, we're just really nice people. That's my sentiment. I just like complimenting other people, I think.
Friend: Well, I imagined this week that you walked around with like a basket and showered them.
You just like tossed them out at people.
Megan: I have like a muffin attached to like a little like "You're great." It has like a gift tag on it. And I'm like, "you did it!" Okay.
Friend: You know that scene in Love Actually. Have you seen Love Actually?
Megan: Yes.
Friend: When the guy with the basket of muffins, he like tosses them all out like, they're not necessarily the appropriate, to the that's right. Like I could see you just being like, Hey, your hair is beautiful.
Megan: Yes. That's precisely what I did. Also though I don't compliment myself enough. So there's that?
Friend: Oh yeah. That's what mirrors are for.
Megan: But I noticed it, I was like, oh, Hmm, interesting. So that's something.
I mean, I could just start myself all day, but I'm not going to like, "girl."
Friend: No, but we know you, you have a high need to get many things accomplished, so that's not going to work.
Megan: Yeah. True. Okay. It's your turn to assign us something for homework.
Friend: I purposely skimmed over a lot of the women in finance profiles earlier. So this week, what I wanted to recommend is to take a look at those profiles of some of the influential women in finance.
We're going to link to them in the show notes. Google, Janet Yellen, two LLs. Just notice, like, have a look at, you know, how old are they? What were their career journeys? Where else have they worked? What roles are they in? I think it'll be really inspiring. And I would love to hear who stuck out or what was interesting.
So I'm not going to be too prescriptive there, but just have a look at someone amazing in the field of finance. Okay. And also maybe can I say, like, maybe notice what she's wearing, because I'm also fascinated by how these women are photographed and maybe I shouldn't be, because maybe I'm not for the men, but the men are always wearing a suit and a tie and for women it's, you know, it's a little more complex and I think I saw a trend, but I wasn't sure.
And I was wondering if anyone else would observe that.
Megan: A whole new episode.
Friend: Hint-hint. Yeah.
Megan: Oh, I love that. Um, okay. We can do this. It's not scary and go us.
Friend: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I will be painting with you and you will be doing spreadsheets in no time.
Megan: Progress.
Friend: Awesome. All right. Well, that brings us to the end of the third episode.
We hope you enjoyed part two of Labels and Language. I personally hope that you learned something new, and maybe made some reevaluations of some of the generalizations and stereotypes. Maybe you have a new analogy that you can work off of for finance. So hopefully a few helpful things there.
Megan: I loved interviewing you and hearing all your answers, you are very brave to enter this world.
And I mean it, because I just didn't even consider it. And we're the exact same age and didn't grow up in similar backgrounds. But I think that I just never even saw it on the platter of options. So I think it's brave just to pursue something that's maybe still new for women. Right. And so it's impressive to me that you entered a world that was full of people that were not like you.
And so that's just pretty awesome. Join us. You're welcome. Join us next week for our discussion with our very dear friend, Kristen Poissant.
Friend: Yes. Kristen, we love her and you're going to love her. So can't wait to chat with you again soon.
Megan: Yeah. Heart you friend.
Until then this is Megan of Art by Megan.
Friend: And her friend, your patron of the arts.
Megan: Wishing you more art.
Friend: And maybe, a better understanding of your money.
Yay.
The Art$ is a production of the Art by Megan Studio. This podcast is created, produced, recorded and researched by Megan and her friend and edited by Hanna Nakano. The views in this recording are the personal views of the co-hosts and their guests. Their commentary is provided for general information purposes only and does not constitute financial, investment, tax, legal, or accounting advice, nor does it constitute an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any art or financial products.
In other words, we're doing this for fun and we hope you enjoy it, but you should still call your account. And your mother.